So, we chose to go to the Moon....

[Aravisian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouRbkBAOGEw&feature=fvw

"We choose to do these things, not because they are easy... But because they are hard!"

[GameGeeks]

The moon landing was a hoax. :p Sorry, couldn't resist. They really should go back there. There's still alot we can learn from it.

[Aravisian]

The moon landing was a hoax. :p Sorry, couldn't resist. They really should go back there. There's still alot we can learn from it.

Oh I sooo agree.
I mean about going back. Not the Hoax bit:p

[axel1]

Oh I sooo agree.
I mean about going back. Not the Hoax bit:p

I don't really see what going back to that desolate rock would accomplish, in my opinion Mars is the future. Terraforming Mars is where the future of humanity lies.

All we need to find out is how to travel to Mars efficiently to begin progress, I suggest [whacky theory ahead] a form of quantum teleportation where we could transport a mass of self-replicating robots to create a greenhouse effect, build cities and form life.

This could probably be done in around 100 years, judging by the technological boom of the last century.

/Insane rant

[Aravisian]

I don't really see what going back to that desolate rock would accomplish, in my opinion Mars is the future. Terraforming Mars is where the future of humanity lies.
It actually would be easier to terrform Venus than Mars.
And for both planets- not an easy task at all.

The prospect of terraforming is possibly centuries out yet.

The moon, however, is well within our reach. It also can serve as a "launchpad" for solar and extra solar missions.
At 1/6th of Earths gravity, it would be a great place to manufacture and launch space probes and craft.

If we intend to terraform another planet, that suggests that we would need to do massive launches to either planet. The Moon would provide an excellent staging area.

The reason the Space Shuttle was called a Shuttle, was the original intent of the orbiter program was to include regular missions to the Moon. The object of the orbiter was to transport regular flights from the surface of Earth.
Due to major budget cut backs, the majority of the plan was scrapped. What was left was a thin skeleton of the original proposal that almost made the space shuttle redundant.
This is a big part why the Shuttles replacement, Orion, is most likely a return to the rocket era of Apollo.

All we need to find out is how to travel to Mars efficiently to begin progress, I suggest [whacky theory ahead] a form of quantum teleportation where we could transport a mass of self-replicating robots to create a greenhouse effect, build cities and form life.
von Neumann machines are not quite wacky, but still a work in progress and development. Even so, it's best to provide human hands on oversight on such a large task, I think.

In the meantime, quantum teleportation seems more an advanced concept than anything we currently have.
So for now, we are well off taking strides into the cosmos using known and tested procedures and while doing so, increasing our resolve to learn and develop such things as what you suggest. But we're no where near there yet.
I say we go to the Moon in the meantime.
And as above, it could be very beneficial for your proposal of continuing out into the Solar System.

My own sights are set on the Jovian Moons, more than Mars...

This could probably be done in around 100 years, judging by the technological boom of the last century.


Knowledge is exponential. It's unpredictable at best.

For now, we can say with certainty that Warp Drive is nearly impossible, but say so tongue in cheek, fully aware that amazing new discoveries could make the impossible possible.
Warp Drive, unlike aeronautical flight, is limited heavily by the properties of the universe.
Even in Sci Fi, the only way writers can explain it is by "Cheating" - finding a work around for the Properties that limit travel.
Sadly, in all our technology, we do not use workarounds. We use the existing properties in our favor.
So we cannot say whether technology can or cannot provide something in time...

But I would say with confidence that I would not want to wait on possible technological breakthroughs. I say we get steppin' and work on making those breakthroughs along the way.

That way, we don't shoot ourselves in the foot.

[axel1]

It actually would be easier to terrform Venus than Mars.

I've looked into this, but haven't yet figured out how we would go about reducing temperature. Even with Mars the idea of upping the temperature through a greenhouse effect seems a bit daffy... some dispute if we are even heating up this planet with all our pollution, on a new planet it'd probably take millions of years to get anywhere with our current technology. Also unlike with Venus, at least there is the slight possibility that Mars has water.

The prospect of terraforming is possibly centuries out yet.

Sadly, and even when we already have countless theories on how to do it. We're too busy fighting religious wars, racism and land disputes (another reason I can't wait for terraformation).

The moon, however, is well within our reach. It also can serve as a "launchpad" for solar and extra solar missions.
At 1/6th of Earths gravity, it would be a great place to manufacture and launch space probes and craft.

That's a pretty good idea, if we could find a way of obtaining energy from the moon (probably solar or nuclear) we could save a lot of fuel and trouble of constantly launching from a gravity stricken Earth, going in and out of a dense ozone layer. If we could also build some Earth-like centers on the moon (with controlled gravity, radition blockage, etc. [think WALL-E :p]) astronauts could also go there and take a break from the drudgery of confined space travel every now and then :)

In the meantime, quantum teleportation seems more an advanced concept than anything we currently have.

It is, but hey could anyone imagine 50 years ago that scientists would someday succesfully transfer an atom? well... apart from Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) :D

Amazing how what we see and aspire to in fiction can become reality if we set our minds to it.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

-Albert Einstein

As long as imagination will be exponential so will knowledge :p

My own sights are set on the Jovian Moons, more than Mars...

I've taken some interest in them myself, Europa namely, but until we can send something there and do some actual tests, it's just something to consider I think.

For now, we can say with certainty that Warp Drive is nearly impossible, but say so tongue in cheek, fully aware that amazing new discoveries could make the impossible possible.
Warp Drive, unlike aeronautical flight, is limited heavily by the properties of the universe.
Even in Sci Fi, the only way writers can explain it is by "Cheating" - finding a work around for the Properties that limit travel.
Sadly, in all our technology, we do not use workarounds. We use the existing properties in our favor.
So we cannot say whether technology can or cannot provide something in time...

Heh, another good example of where imagination creates or inspires knowledge. Some people have already made theories on possibility of travelling at warp speed around the universe. Lately dark matter is all the rage in regards to that. I think it's also made easier with Einsteins theories of relativety, some believe we could actually create a hole in the universe and travel from point A to point B in an instance :p

But I would say with confidence that I would not want to wait on possible technological breakthroughs. I say we get steppin' and work on making those breakthroughs along the way.

Heh I still haven't shaken off the idea that somewhere out there scientists are coming up with all these ideas and breakthroughs. I would of course like to make some contribution as an average Joe, maybe even by influencing someone with a greater scientific mind by being a visionary... like many of our beloved Sci-fi writers :)

[Aravisian]

I've looked into this, but haven't yet figured out how we would go about reducing temperature. Even with Mars the idea of upping the temperature through a greenhouse effect seems a bit daffy... some dispute if we are even heating up this planet with all our pollution, on a new planet it'd probably take millions of years to get anywhere with our current technology. Also unlike with Venus, at least there is the slight possibility that Mars has water.
Very slight. But yes, although Venus (surprisingly) does have water, it's very very slight compared to Mars even. It's trapped in its atmosphere.
Although Venus is closer to the Sun, if it had the right balance of ocean
and atmosphere, it could be quite cool, relatively. Still hotter than Earth... But tolerable. There would be some areas that would need domes where colonists would have to remain indoors throughout some seasons, however.
Even so, forming an ocean on Venus is as daunting a task as forming one on Mars.

Even advancing technology a century from now, it's most likely that colonists on either planet will have to live in Bio-Domes and won't be able to venture outside.

I like Mars, don't get me wrong. But I would consider Venus to be a much better planet for Terraformation.
It has an atmosphere, very nearly the same gravity as Earth, and very similar minerals (MINING!) and resources as Earth (save fossil fuels , of course).
It's less daunting a task to alter an existing atmosphere than to add a new one. Mars has an extremely thin atmosphere. Can you imagine trying to coat that rock with an ocean of air?

Venus does, however, lack a very important element for our surface survival. A Magnetic Field.

That problem, could cause serious problems with trying to alter its atmosphere. Without a magnetic field to protect it and contain it, solar wind will blow much of our work away into space.

Sadly, and even when we already have countless theories on how to do it. We're too busy fighting religious wars, racism and land disputes (another reason I can't wait for terraformation).

Heard that!

We are still very primitive and superstitious.


That's a pretty good idea, if we could find a way of obtaining energy from the moon (probably solar or nuclear) we could save a lot of fuel and trouble of constantly launching from a gravity stricken Earth, going in and out of a dense ozone layer. If we could also build some Earth-like centers on the moon (with controlled gravity, radition blockage, etc. [think WALL-E :p]) astronauts could also go there and take a break from the drudgery of confined space travel every now and then :)
Oh I think so, too. But I don't see controlled gravity on the surface of the Moon being a possibility in the foreseeable future.
We can simulate gravity with an object spinning in space, but not much point in doing that on the Moons surface. Possible, but...
Wanna build a spinning ring on the Moon? heh...
It'd probably be just as well to let folks experience Lunar gravity.

Radiation shielding is an easy task, we can do that with no problem now.
Heck... that may mean some folks on the Moon would be exposed to less radiation than their counterparts standing on Earth.

But think: Rail Gun.

Launching objects into space from a rail or track, as seen in many sci fi, including Gattica.
Although it's a very difficult task on Earth, it would be much easier on the Moon.

And returns and landings would be much easier as well. As you point out, no atmosphere to slam into at breakneck speed.

Also... Without a cumbersome atmosphere, a space elevator might be easier on the Moon as well.

It is, but hey could anyone imagine 50 years ago that scientists would someday succesfully transfer an atom? well... apart from Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) :D
Technically, we did that back in the Nineties.
I see your point, but I'm not optimistic on that score. I know pretty well the underlying foundation required and although I could very well be wrong, I can guess as to how much progress we would need to make in order to advance to certain stages.
Many scientists have successfully done the same, but the irony is that most folks that try set the expected result long before it actually happens.
Many folks were sure we would have colonized the Moon by now. We have not even been back yet.

And in Quantum Mechanics, our measurements are based on instruments built of the same components that we are trying to study. This retards us to some degree. We have to work around that by studying with things like Colliders.


I've taken some interest in them myself, Europa namely, but until we can send something there and do some actual tests, it's just something to consider I think.
Aye, but it's nice to dream in the meantime, right?l;)

What you think- Life on Europa?
Taking all bets now....

Heh, another good example of where imagination creates or inspires knowledge. Some people have already made theories on possibility of travelling at warp speed around the universe. Lately dark matter is all the rage in regards to that. I think it's also made easier with Einsteins theories of relativety, some believe we could actually create a hole in the universe and travel from point A to point B in an instance :p
Alcubierre Warp Drive is the most well known.

However, there are other methods- All require an "unknown" or exotic material that does not exist in order to facilitate it in some way. Most require energies even beyond what exists in the measurable Universe. No way of generating THAT short of collapsing the entire thing. Which is also likely to remain completely beyond our scope.

There is one theory that makes use of wormholes.
By dragging an open end of a wormhole at high speed, one can create the warp effect or even "time travel" possibilities- Allowable Mathematically.
But allowable in mathematics does not always mean possible either.

In Einsteins field equations and Relativity, wormholes and white holes are permissible mathematically.
But none have ever been discovered to exist.

Additionally, how does one go about latching onto the end of a hole and dragging it around?

Even the fantastic ideas thought up to solve one problem end up creating more problems.

It does make me wish I could live longer though, to see what happens and what ingenious methods are discovered in the far future...



Heh I still haven't shaken off the idea that somewhere out there scientists are coming up with all these ideas and breakthroughs. I would of course like to make some contribution as an average Joe, maybe even by influencing someone with a greater scientific mind by being a visionary... like many of our beloved Sci-fi writers :)
You can. Support sciences and the space program:p:p

[tatsuya1221]

Personally i find it foolish that we want to go to the moon when we have things to fix here.

How about fixing the starvation and global warming problem first?

[GameGeeks]

Personaly I don't think humans caused global warming. I know we damaged the atmosphere back in the 1950's but I think it's just a cycle the earth is going through. There have been phases like this through out earth's history. We just happen to be around for this one.

As for the hunger issue, I'm all for that.

[Aravisian]

Personally i find it foolish that we want to go to the moon when we have things to fix here.

How about fixing the starvation and global warming problem first?

Well, for one; learning how to fix them here could be a big step in helping us to successfully do it elsewhere. In that respect, I agree with you.

But I don't think that having current problems here should hold us back from progression.
After-all, we will ALWAYS have problems here. But it's our progression that has increasingly enabled us to work toward many solutions.

So by venturing out into space, this merely means we are multi-tasking. it does not mean the home problems get ignored. And by venturing, exploring, studying and expanding, we can develop the means to fix many problems here as well.

[tatsuya1221]

Personaly I don't think humans caused global warming. I know we damaged the atmosphere back in the 1950's but I think it's just a cycle the earth is going through. There have been phases like this through out earth's history. We just happen to be around for this one.

As for the hunger issue, I'm all for that.

I agree about the global warming thing, but that doesn't change what i meant, it would be better to spend money on that, and maybe asteroid research than spend billions of dollars to make a lunar theme park, which is all it really is to me.

Well, for one; learning how to fix them here could be a big step in helping us to successfully do it elsewhere. In that respect, I agree with you.

But I don't think that having current problems here should hold us back from progression.
After-all, we will ALWAYS have problems here. But it's our progression that has increasingly enabled us to work toward many solutions.

So by venturing out into space, this merely means we are multi-tasking. it does not mean the home problems get ignored. And by venturing, exploring, studying and expanding, we can develop the means to fix many problems here as well.

Don't use the word progression.
I remember the native americans were standing in the way of progress, so basically, your saying to me that millions should die if it means the betterment in the long run?
Sorry, i cannot agree with that

[GameGeeks]

There's lots of things we could do. But there's also the chance the moon could contain something to help in one of those things.

[tatsuya1221]

There's lots of things we could do. But there's also the chance the moon could contain something to help in one of those things.

I remember that curiosity killed the cat.

Basically, in the end, it won't matter what i say, mankind will kill itself again like it has so many times before.

[ARProductions]

I always wondered why people are excited to go to the moon....I could give two sh1ts....

[deadly_-_dreamerX]

One Thing I am sure that Earth will balance it self in one way or another. By us or by another force.

Does any one agree on this?

[tatsuya1221]

One Thing I am sure that Earth will balance it self in one way or another. By us or by another force.

Does any one agree on this?

Yeah, can't wait for the weapons to break out and start causing a group of 8 people to go up against a feminine bad guy with silver hair and a 9 foot long sword.

Ha, someone had to say it.

[Aravisian]

Personaly I don't think humans caused global warming. I know we damaged the atmosphere back in the 1950's but I think it's just a cycle the earth is going through. There have been phases like this through out earth's history. We just happen to be around for this one.
Anthropogenic Global Warming is a very hot debate. Not one I'm Very well rehearsed in myself...

I hear what you are saying. There is a lot of evidence about the cyclic nature. In fact, the Co2 levels in the distant past were much much higher than now, according to Antarctic Ice cores.
Additionally, a great deal of greenhouse gas is emitted from natural sources, such as swamps.

However, although I am ignorant on the details, I understand that most well studied in the field find that man has caused our current condition. Even if these cycles can happen naturally, this does not disclude the possibility that we caused THIS cycle.

And it may have been a bit of both.

Either way, whether we caused it or not, we do need to find a way of addressing it. Hopefully, without making a Mustang boss 351 illegal...
As for the hunger issue, I'm all for that.

I got cheesecake...

One Thing I am sure that Earth will balance it self in one way or another. By us or by another force.

Does any one agree on this?

No.

It has shown no sign of such at any point in the past.
Instead, life had to adapt- or it went extinct.

[deadly_-_dreamerX]

I don't know, could future turn to look like Star oceon or Just a desolated land
like in chrono Trigger 2300 AD

[tatsuya1221]

No.

It has shown no sign of such at any point in the past.
Instead, life had to adapt- or it went extinct.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, He said the earth, not us.

The earth will find a balance one day, doesnt mean the people of this era will be alive to see it.

[Aravisian]

Actually, that's not entirely accurate, He said the earth, not us.

The earth will find a balance one day, doesnt mean the people of this era will be alive to see it.

Explain the lack of accuracy.

We have evidence dating back hundreds of millions of years for life and a very extensive fossil record, showing mass extinctions in concert with many global changes including the iridium layer for 65 million years ago.

You speak on faith, I speak on evidence. I have evidence to support my statement, do you?

[tatsuya1221]

Explain the lack of accuracy.

We have evidence dating back hundreds of millions of years for life and a very extensive fossil record, showing mass extinctions in concert with many global changes including the iridium layer for 65 million years ago.

You speak on faith, I speak on evidence. I have evidence to support my statement, do you?

Are you really trying to be this foolish?

Look, it was at equalibrium in the stone age.
In the prehistoric era.
In today.

It is A FACT that it will equalize at one point, it has many times over many millions of years according to YOUR OWN SCIENCE!

And i bolded the parts you need to read, since you obviously didn;t read my former post.

[ARProductions]

fight breaks out......3........2........1.......

[Aravisian]

fight breaks out......3........2........1.......

Yeah another one...

Let's stay on Topic- The Moon and space exploration.

This tangent smacks strongly of heading toward religion.

[GameGeeks]

Yeah, can't wait for the weapons to break out and start causing a group of 8 people to go up against a feminine bad guy with silver hair and a 9 foot long sword.

Ha, someone had to say it.

That's 6 feet thank you very much.

[axel1]

Oh I think so, too. But I don't see controlled gravity on the surface of the Moon being a possibility in the foreseeable future.
We can simulate gravity with an object spinning in space, but not much point in doing that on the Moons surface. Possible, but...
Wanna build a spinning ring on the Moon? heh...
It'd probably be just as well to let folks experience Lunar gravity.

Oh I was thinking of limiting this simulated gravity to bio-domes only, although living in lunar gravity sounds extremely fun in theory, we have to remember that humans weren't designed to live like that for prolonged periods of time. What I meant was that astronauts would experience temporary Earth-like simulation. My idea of artificial gravity comes from dragonball Z so I'm definately no expert on the subject :p, constantly spinning something to create gravity sounds like a very energy consumable process :(


Launching objects into space from a rail or track, as seen in many sci fi, including Gattica.
Although it's a very difficult task on Earth, it would be much easier on the Moon.

Never thought of that, sounds very energy efficient :)


And in Quantum Mechanics, our measurements are based on instruments built of the same components that we are trying to study. This retards us to some degree. We have to work around that by studying with things like Colliders.

Lol watever happened to that Large Hadron Collider? wasn't it supposed to make the world end? :p

What you think- Life on Europa?
Taking all bets now....

Lol I've always wondered if there were some sort of life hidden under that ice, kinda freaks me out tho, the idea of unknown sea-creatures from another planet lurking under there and all :p


Alcubierre Warp Drive is the most well known.

Riding space waves ay, sounds great, all we need to do now is find a way to stretch the fabric of space! *crickets chirping*

However, there are other methods- All require an "unknown" or exotic material that does not exist in order to facilitate it in some way. Most require energies even beyond what exists in the measurable Universe. No way of generating THAT short of collapsing the entire thing. Which is also likely to remain completely beyond our scope.

Heh, I'm quite comfortable with such things remaining beyond our scope at this time :p

There is one theory that makes use of wormholes.
By dragging an open end of a wormhole at high speed, one can create the warp effect or even "time travel" possibilities- Allowable Mathematically.
But allowable in mathematics does not always mean possible either.

This is basically what I meant by creating a hole in space, except we would be able to create them at will rather than having to discover them. Although I doubt any such theories even exist.

I'd still like to learn more about dark matter, isn't it what basically expanded the universe in a short matter of time [big bang]? I like the sound of infinite energy that can move stars at figuritave light speed... then again I don't know much about it.

It does make me wish I could live longer though, to see what happens and what ingenious methods are discovered in the far future...

Same here, I can only imagine what will be in at least a 100 years, supposedly there's gona be computers that will function a trillion times faster than todays... I could finally run my PS2 ISOs at full speed :)

[axel1]

Personally i find it foolish that we want to go to the moon when we have things to fix here.

How about fixing the starvation and global warming problem first?

I honestly see no reason in hindering science to suite a certain issue.

But theoretically, we could avoid this supposed "global warming" by expanding to another planet and learning about atmospheric manipulation, no?

Also, we could easily feed everyone in the world, but elites refuse to as it would be somewhat of a monetary drain to sustain all forms of life. This is mostly due to greed and hording of resources. If we were to expand our human colony to other planets and find new ways to create resources we could solve all those problems :)

So you see, with 6 billion people on this planet there's no reasons to limit all their thinking and aspirations to solving a single problem... like a puzzle it will take a sequence of unrelated pieces of discoveries to make the world a perfect place.

[codeman]

i didnt read the whole thread 'cause i didnt have time to, but there's this guy who made this plane like space craft which is way better than NASA's stupid little shuttles we're wasting money on, there's no need for the giant rocket to shoot the shuttle into space, like i said it's more like a plane: take off and go to space. each time he gets farther out into space, so we have the tech just not ppl with the brains or common sense

[axel1]

i didnt read the whole thread 'cause i didnt have time to, but there's this guy who made this plane like space craft which is way better than NASA's stupid little shuttles we're wasting money on, there's no need for the giant rocket to shoot the shuttle into space, like i said it's more like a plane: take off and go to space. each time he gets farther out into space, so we have the tech just not ppl with the brains or common sense

Yes I have heard this story, but you know he was funded by NASA right?

Besides this shuttle isn't "way better" than NASA's shuttles, it doesn't serve nearly the same purposes; these shuttles were made to create a private space flight industry, not to perform various scientific research.

But I like the idea either way. Lets first see what Virgin Galactic can do with their sub-orbital space trips.

[tatsuya1221]

I honestly see no reason in hindering science to suite a certain issue.

But theoretically, we could avoid this supposed "global warming" by expanding to another planet and learning about atmospheric manipulation, no?

Also, we could easily feed everyone in the world, but elites refuse to as it would be somewhat of a monetary drain to sustain all forms of life. This is mostly due to greed and hording of resources. If we were to expand our human colony to other planets and find new ways to create resources we could solve all those problems :)

So you see, with 6 billion people on this planet there's no reasons to limit all their thinking and aspirations to solving a single problem... like a puzzle it will take a sequence of unrelated pieces of discoveries to make the world a perfect place.

what you describe is the first thing on this site that i would call outright evil, bravo.
What your suggesting is a experiment on the natural order of worlds, then putting people on those worlds to see how well they can handle things, of course like you said, ship the poor to the moon, etc.

That imo is the very definition of evil, and i'm not an adherent to either the view of human experimentation and forced segregation of populace.

Also, look at the united states, do you know how many people in the U.S. die from starvation?More than you hear about on the news that's for sure.
You can't blame that on dictators.

Also about the "we must do it for the later betterment of the species", sorry, but i'm also not an adherent to the kill 1 to save a hundred rule as a moral one, 1 death caused by such imo is no worse than 100, all life is precious.

[GameGeeks]

Yeah, I'm against human experimentation. I'm iffy of the extent we do it now. Hell I'm against experementing on animals too.

[Aravisian]

Oh I was thinking of limiting this simulated gravity to bio-domes only,
How?
although living in lunar gravity sounds extremely fun in theory, we have to remember that humans weren't designed to live like that for prolonged periods of time. What I meant was that astronauts would experience temporary Earth-like simulation. My idea of artificial gravity comes from dragonball Z so I'm definately no expert on the subject :p, constantly spinning something to create gravity sounds like a very energy consumable process :(
Yes, it would be- as well as impractical.

Also, the human body may not have evolved in a low gravity environment, it is adaptable.

We can sustain zero gravity for very very long periods of time, in fact. The only serious problem is muscle atrophy, but muscles can be maintained in space using tension mounted exercise equipment.

Lol watever happened to that Large Hadron Collider? wasn't it supposed to make the world end? :p
Oh, of course not. But the fearmongers love to stir people up.

Remember the TU-24 asteroid scare? Sheesh...

And how about Nancy Leiders Alien psychics that warned that the World would end in '97. Then they changed it to 2003. After still- nothing happened.. They bumped it up TWICE landing on 2012...
My money is on NOTHINGS GONNA HAPPEN.

The LHC is no more a threat or a danger to Earth than I am a Black Hole.

People like that really just rub me in all the wrong ways. They seem to almost take a perverse pleasure in scaring people using whatever misinformation and invented tall tales they think the crowd might swallow. It's appalling
Lol I've always wondered if there were some sort of life hidden under that ice, kinda freaks me out tho, the idea of unknown sea-creatures from another planet lurking under there and all :p
Yeah... But what an amazing thing that would be, too.
Riding space waves ay, sounds great, all we need to do now is find a way to stretch the fabric of space! *crickets chirping*
Maybe that's plausible. After all, space is expanding. In fact, recent surveys show that the expansion is Accelerating.
So apparently, whatever space is made of can expand...

We cannot observe it up close and personal, considering that gravity greatly overwhelms the effect making it utterly negligible around any massive object.
However, if we can discover more about the "fabric" of space...

Heh, I'm quite comfortable with such things remaining beyond our scope at this time :p
I'm a dare devil, myself;)

This is basically what I meant by creating a hole in space, except we would be able to create them at will rather than having to discover them. Although I doubt any such theories even exist.
It sounds as though you are referring to worm holes. In which case, there's tons of hypothesis about them.
Check into Stephen Hawking, Michiu Kaku (He's a Brane and string theorist- VERY wacky stuff... Will blow your mind) and of course, relativity.


I'd still like to learn more about dark matter, isn't it what basically expanded the universe in a short matter of time [big bang]? I like the sound of infinite energy that can move stars at figuritave light speed... then again I don't know much about it.
Think of "Dark Matter" as a Place Holder.

Dark matter simply means, we see evidence that there is mass present in a given area, yet we cannot see that mass other than the EFFECT it has. Since we cannot observe it directly, we do not know what it is or for certain, what is causing the effect.
So, you observe a galaxy, take specific measurements of density and so on, yet when you crunch the numbers, the galaxy shows a much greater gravitational effect than it SHOULD. Something is there adding a lot of mass, that we cannot see. Since we don't know what it is, we call it "Dark Matter" until we do know.

I am, personally, unhappy about the Dark Matter place holder and will be much relieved when new information comes to light that will enable us to theorize to greater accuracy what causes the gravitational effect we are observing.




Gamegeeks and Tatsuya...

What the HECK are you two going on about "evil Human Experimentation."?
Seriously... That doesn't even make SENSE much less make a legitimate argument.
Amazing how I was called arrogant and my 'posting style' called into question considering what I just read from you two.
Your commentary was chock full of baseless assumptions, propaganda and frankly: nonsense.

What evidence do you have that colonization in space will be comprised of poor people, indentured servants, human guinea pigs and the like?
HOGWASH.

Colonization would be volunteer, most likely, with people LIKE ME CLAMORING for the wondrous opportunity.
Most likely, the qualifications to go would contain a high level education.

I'm very, very curious: What causes this hateful spite and bitterness you show? I'd really like to know. Seriously.

[tatsuya1221]

Gamegeeks and Tatsuya...

What the HECK are you two going on about "evil Human Experimentation."?
Seriously... That doesn't even make SENSE much less make a legitimate argument.
Amazing how I was called arrogant and my 'posting style' called into question considering what I just read from you two.
Your commentary was chock full of baseless assumptions, propaganda and frankly: nonsense.

What evidence do you have that colonization in space will be comprised of poor people, indentured servants, human guinea pigs and the like?
HOGWASH.

Colonization would be volunteer, most likely, with people LIKE ME CLAMORING for the wondrous opportunity.
Most likely, the qualifications to go would contain a high level education.

I'm very, very curious: What causes this hateful spite and bitterness you show? I'd really like to know. Seriously.
Read that closely.
I honestly see no reason in hindering science to suite a certain issue.

But theoretically, we could avoid this supposed "global warming" by expanding to another planet and learning about atmospheric manipulation, no?

Also, we could easily feed everyone in the world, but elites refuse to as it would be somewhat of a monetary drain to sustain all forms of life. This is mostly due to greed and hording of resources. If we were to expand our human colony to other planets and find new ways to create resources we could solve all those problems :)

So you see, with 6 billion people on this planet there's no reasons to limit all their thinking and aspirations to solving a single problem... like a puzzle it will take a sequence of unrelated pieces of discoveries to make the world a perfect place.

Your still talking about altering a ecosystem, an act i'd call wrong no matter the intent.

Also you claim people would be willing to just up and leave their homelands like that?
Yeah a few would, but this is still mankind's home, they would have to be forced out.

The new world and Australia are a good example of what will happen, as this has happened before.

Also from his own words, expanding to the outer rim if you will would free up resources, ok fine, sure, but here's a question, why should that even be a factor at this point?

You claim we go all off topic, but there's a difference in the fact that we don't have a problem with either you or him being fond of it, but don't expect us to advocate it.

I won't answer you again since i have no desire to get in a debate with you on this, i won't move even an inch.


Oh and i hate anything that advocates slavery, torture or harming innocent people.

[Klendathu]

I would totally leave this planet willingly and without a second thought.

[Aravisian]

Read that closely.
Your still talking about altering a ecosystem, an act i'd call wrong no matter the intent.
Oh, really?
Your computer is altering the ecosystem, yet you use it.

Your house is an alteration, the city you live in is an alteration...
Everything any animal or plant does is an ecosystem altering event- usually in a minor way... But everything about humanity is not minor and quite altering.

You seem to have not headed for the hills to wear bearskins and howl at the Moon.

Altering an ecosystem is what any creature will do to one degree or another. It's an inevitability.
That doesn't mean it's always "wrong" no matter what.

All the life on Earth must, by your count, be horribly wrong.

What standard of "wrong" are you using?

Also you claim people would be willing to just up and leave their homelands like that?
Yeah a few would, but this is still mankind's home, they would have to be forced out.
A few is all that would be needed.

Who would do this "forcing" you speak of?

What a very pessimistic view you must have of modern society...

The new world and Australia are a good example of what will happen, as this has happened before.
You once quoted, "Know your history or we are doomed to repeat it."
We do know our history. Just because society at a time in the past did something wrong, does not mean we always Will. Otherwise,what good would that quote be for?

Also from his own words, expanding to the outer rim if you will would free up resources, ok fine, sure, but here's a question, why should that even be a factor at this point?
Why should it not? It's a very large problem, currently. A problem that YOU mentioned, was it not?

You claim we go all off topic, but there's a difference in the fact that we don't have a problem with either you or him being fond of it, but don't expect us to advocate it.
I do not expect you to advocate it.
But I can say the same. Don't expect me to always agree with you.


I won't answer you again since i have no desire to get in a debate with you on this, i won't move even an inch.
Works for me. I really am tired of fighting with you.

Oh and i hate anything that advocates slavery, torture or harming innocent people.

So do I. What's your point? What you just listed has zero relevance to the topic. Your straw man is absurd, to say the least.

[GameGeeks]

I'm going to say this now. Aravasian, stop now. You are pushing your views. Don't hide behind I'm stating facts. There's stating facts and then there's forceing your views. Guess what one you fall into. I'll give you a hint, it's not the former. Stop now. This is my last warning to you. Or do I need to list off the rules you have already broken?

[axel1]

what you describe is the first thing on this site that i would call outright evil, bravo.
What your suggesting is a experiment on the natural order of worlds, then putting people on those worlds to see how well they can handle things, of course like you said, ship the poor to the moon, etc.

That imo is the very definition of evil, and i'm not an adherent to either the view of human experimentation and forced segregation of populace.

Also, look at the united states, do you know how many people in the U.S. die from starvation?More than you hear about on the news that's for sure.
You can't blame that on dictators.

Also about the "we must do it for the later betterment of the species", sorry, but i'm also not an adherent to the kill 1 to save a hundred rule as a moral one, 1 death caused by such imo is no worse than 100, all life is precious.

Wait... who said anything about human experimentation?! we're talking about willing astronauts with years of scholarly experience in the field taking a leap for mankind. Scientists already know the exact affects these things would have on the human body and can adjust atmosphere without any humans being present. There wouldn't be any harm done to anyone.

Where did you get the idea that they would need to do any tests on anyone? This isn't the 1800's.

We spend more money on pornography, the war on drugs and of course; war, than we do on any form of scientific research or programs to feed the starving. So not finding a way to make a desolate rock like Mars or Venus into a lush home for our species seems backwards to me.

Also, how you can think that changing the ecosystem is more evil than hoarding resources is a bit strange to me. Especially when feeding starving people would include changing the ecosystem to suite our production needs.

How?

Well apparently some scientists have done it by creating a ring of superconducting material rotating up to 6,500 times a minute. But as I said I don't know much about it.

Check into Stephen Hawking, Michiu Kaku (He's a Brane and string theorist- VERY wacky stuff... Will blow your mind) and of course, relativity.

Lol Michio Kaku is one of my favorites. It was actually his theories that got me interested in space and Aeronautics in the first place, as far as science went I was solely interested in genetics and things regarding the medical field. My knowledge of the space subject is still pretty raw, I'm gona have to get cracking on some Michio, Hawking and Einstein publications :D

I'm going to say this now. Aravasian, stop now. You are pushing your views. Don't hide behind I'm stating facts. There's stating facts and then there's forceing your views. Guess what one you fall into. I'll give you a hint, it's not the former. Stop now. This is my last warning to you. Or do I need to list off the rules you have already broken?

He's not exactly pushing his views, moreso he's defending them. It wasn't Aravasian who made claims that his idea involved enslaving humanity and causing a space apartheid of some sort.

I think he's entitled to accentuate on his ideas to make things clearer, and if Tatsuya disagrees, aravasian then can give more evidence to support his ideas. That's basically how science discussion works.

[Aravisian]

I'm going to say this now. Aravasian, stop now. You are pushing your views. Don't hide behind I'm stating facts. There's stating facts and then there's forceing your views. Guess what one you fall into. I'll give you a hint, it's not the former. Stop now. This is my last warning to you. Or do I need to list off the rules you have already broken?

Show me clearly with quotes what "views" I have supposedly forced?


Axel1 hit the nail on the head Gamegeeks.
You need to stop trying to Abuse your Moderator Power. I'm getting very fed up with being constantly attacked and falsely accused.


He's not exactly pushing his views, moreso he's defending them. It wasn't Aravasian who made claims that his idea involved enslaving humanity and causing a space apartheid of some sort.

I think he's entitled to accentuate on his ideas to make things clearer, and if Tatsuya disagrees, aravasian then can give more evidence to support his ideas. That's basically how science discussion works.

Get used to it guy.

This is how these guys act all the time.

They repeatedly try to squelch true scientific discussion.

Tatsuya has outright ADMITTED he dislikes science and how science operates. His personal bias is very severe and clear.
And yet, they seem to fail to recognize just how hypocritical their behavior is- and use their position as Mods to threaten and silence people for doing nothing wrong- Other than disagreeing with them.

Just watch- There's a STRONG chance they are going to justify a Ban on me for speaking out against their awful behavior.

[GameGeeks]

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrit the response to the first quote of tatsuya has you comeing off as an ***. That's pretty close if not dead on to eliteism in my book. The whole post could have been done differently. Take the ego out and you'd be fine.

Truth be told, I've been trying to be nice to you. I responded to this and other posts of yours without any hostility or looking to pick a fight. You're the one that pushes it and gets the resault of perfectly good topics getting locked.

On that note I'd like to request that this thread be locked.

[tatsuya1221]

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrit the response to the first quote of tatsuya has you comeing off as an ***. That's pretty close if not dead on to eliteism in my book. The whole post could have been done differently. Take the ego out and you'd be fine.

Truth be told, I've been trying to be nice to you. I responded to this and other posts of yours without any hostility or looking to pick a fight. You're the one that pushes it and gets the resault of perfectly good topics getting locked.

On that note I'd like to request that this thread be locked.

So it is done.