Human habitability and expansion into space

[Aravisian]

This thread is for discussing the space program and our eventual move into the solar system and beyond.
The benefits and the drawbacks.

Many might see this as an inevitability.
We are, by nature, explorers. Inordinately curious, we have little choice but to venture outward, simply so we can see what's over there.

[axel1]

I still can't believe the last thread was locked because someone happened to have a different opinion... just wow.

[tatsuya1221]

I still can't believe the last thread was locked because someone happened to have a different opinion... just wow.

That thread was locked because it became more or less a flame war, keep it clean here and it won't be locked.

[Aravisian]

I still can't believe the last thread was locked because someone happened to have a different opinion... just wow.

I find the topic interesting, however and I'd like to see it discussed. Plus, I'm very tenacious.

This thread... is childs play, actually- for you Axel1.

Wait until we start discussing Brane and string and Kaku's propositions;)
Probably a future thread... a splinter off this topic.
THAT's going to get hot:p

Fortunately, I know you can handle it.

All the same... I must point out in Tatsuya's favor, many expeditions of exploration in the past have not been grounded in honorable intentions.
Example: Columbus.
Columbus was on par with Hitler in his acts of Genocide (Godwins law, anyone?) His primary motivation was greed of the highest order- and he was ruthless in its efficiency.

However, even for his time, he was having to hide his crimes from the Spanish court. When he got caught he was imprisoned and ALL his wealth stripped from him. The only thing that saved him was that the royalty felt they owed him one.

Since those days, humanity as a culture has gained much better communication and done a little bit of growing up. Modern society is no longer wont to endure slavery, indentured servitude etc.

Modern exploration has grounded itself in honorable desire and more noble intentions. And a bit of greed too.
Not necessarily greed of the order of making oneself filthy rich... But of the sort that enables a product that is in current short supply, to be made abundant.

[Sargoth]

Well, honestly, it just isn't cost effective to colonize space.

Now if you find some vast deposit of oil, coal, or some other highly profitable resource, then serious efforts into colonization will most likely occur.

Just like in your example of Columbus being motivated by greed. You won't get nearly the amount of funding for pure research for knoledge as you will research for profit. It has been a long proven concept that the great motivators and the cause of great leaps forward in science have been forged in war and greed. Man then takes the creations of those forges and adapts them for every day use.

Now you let China start a serious colonization effort in space, then the other space capable countries will fire up their own programs. Just like the space race of the 50's and 60's.

If you want the money and drive to come from the private sector, you will need a reason for the various companies to lay out billions of dollars for 0 tangiable profit for their stockholders. I just can't think of anything out there that would be cost effective for them.....maybe if the Mars Rover found vast sea's of oil or something...

[axel1]

Wait until we start discussing Brane and string and Kaku's propositions;)
Probably a future thread... a splinter off this topic.

Heh, maybe once I can figure out how string theory explains the connection between the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics, understand how multi-dimensions can coexist and interrelate through string theory (along with understanding how dimensions came to exist) and get a better idea of how exactly string vibrations work and give sub-particles their characteristics, I'd better stick to the physical world... unfortunately since I'm no maths whiz my understanding of physics and metaphysics will always stay limited to what my brain can process :p

All the same... I must point out in Tatsuya's favor, many expeditions of exploration in the past have not been grounded in honorable intentions.
Example: Columbus.

Well you have to understand that at the time such expeditions required a good amount of men and equipment. No one would be interested in funding such endeavours for noble purposes, especially under a monarchy. On top of that, this was a time when people lived under puritanical beliefs and draconian law, a time before the age of enlightenment, before humans would learn about the negative implications of supremacy and self-interest. It's a bit like comparing apples to oranges.

Now that's NOT to say that greed won't be a big part of this human expansion. I can assure you that Europeans will be fighting for their piece, East Asians will be fighting for theirs, Muslims for theirs and Jews for theirs and etc.. Another planet, to most people, will seem like nothing more than prime real estate. I'm afraid our cultural seperations and prejudices will still extend to worlds beyond.

I actually had a theory, that if we were to place all different races to their own respective planet, give or take around a 100 thousand years, they would resemble our current planet with cultural and physical differences resulting in many global issues.

I believe until humans evolve past our primal feelings towards differences, there will still be problems, but nothing closely relating to what Tatsuya implied... not in this day and age. Not when people have learnt from slavery, genocide and the many pointless wars. Not when people are experiencing freedom of thought not soiled by tyrants and religious extremists (in most parts of the world anyway).

Apart from that, I see absolutely no moral issues with the actual process of colonizing our solar system, such thoughts never even crossed my mind.

[axel1]

Well, honestly, it just isn't cost effective to colonize space.

Now if you find some vast deposit of oil, coal, or some other highly profitable resource, then serious efforts into colonization will most likely occur.

Well sure, but the whole idea is finding new ways to do all this. Using primitive fossil burning machinery and technology of today would of course be futile. We're just brainstorming some ideas of how this could be done, it's up the countless physicists, mathematicians and mechanics of this world to figure these things out and put them into perspective.

Now you let China start a serious colonization effort in space, then the other space capable countries will fire up their own programs. Just like the space race of the 50's and 60's.

Yeah, I foresaw this kind of behaviour, it's inevitable judging by the quality of precedent human behaviour. But it's a price to pay I suppose. Who knows, had it not been for the Soviet/American space race we would probably have never even sent a man to the moon. So positive can come out of the negative.

If you want the money and drive to come from the private sector, you will need a reason for the various companies to lay out billions of dollars for 0 tangiable profit for their stockholders.

Well not exactly, there's plenty of reasons "private sectors" might want to get involved. Who wouldn't want a piece of the new-new world? there would be a market in this without question, from simple space travel (as already seen) to construction.

[Aravisian]

Well, honestly, it just isn't cost effective to colonize space.

Now if you find some vast deposit of oil, coal, or some other highly profitable resource, then serious efforts into colonization will most likely occur.
Oil or coal? Now THAT would be an intriguing discovery, to say the least! :p
Just like in your example of Columbus being motivated by greed. You won't get nearly the amount of funding for pure research for knoledge as you will research for profit. It has been a long proven concept that the great motivators and the cause of great leaps forward in science have been forged in war and greed. Man then takes the creations of those forges and adapts them for every day use.

Now you let China start a serious colonization effort in space, then the other space capable countries will fire up their own programs. Just like the space race of the 50's and 60's.

If you want the money and drive to come from the private sector, you will need a reason for the various companies to lay out billions of dollars for 0 tangiable profit for their stockholders. I just can't think of anything out there that would be cost effective for them.....maybe if the Mars Rover found vast sea's of oil or something...

These are very good points.
However, Axel1 makes some strong counter-arguments already in his response.
Also, there are tangible resources gained not just from other planets in the solar system.
It's Knowledge and discovery that is also a valuable resource.

What do you think the folks on Space Lab and on many shuttle missions and Mir and the ISS have been doing all this time? Allowing experiments to be conducted in space has broadened our horizons and produced scientific breakthroughs and discoveries that have had real world tangible effects. Products are quickly developed from this new knowledge that then enhance our lives with medicine, treatments and everyday luxury like computing.

And part of it is simply not Knowing for sure what is out there. It's well worth it to many investors to spend the money to find out. Knowledge is a very valuable resource, even if you cannot stick it in a fuel tank and make a car go putt putt.

unfortunately since I'm no maths whiz my understanding of physics and metaphysics will always stay limited to what my brain can process :p
That's true for any human being, but I feel ya...

But I wouldn't mind speculating all the same.;)

At this time, that's all it would be.
You make mention of a TOE, to bind Gravity to Relativity.
Hopefully, the LHC will fire it up soon and in the coming couple years, we'll have much stronger answers upon which to lay the next foundation.

Now... Where did Garret Lisi get to...
On top of that, this was a time when people lived under puritanical beliefs and draconian law, a time before the age of enlightenment, before humans would learn about the negative implications of supremacy and self-interest. It's a bit like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, it really is.
However, I disagree with you on one regard.
Our current society is maintained by its very presence.
Should that break down, human kind most definitely has the potential to backslide into that same dog eat dog mentality. It's our nature.
At this point, I agian, after some thought, extend an apology to Tatsuya.
Because although I still claim that his commentary is no longer applicable in today's society...
It COULD be applicable if our society allowed such. We have learned from our mistakes, true. But our learning can be unlearned in times of unrest.
If it were not for people like Tatsuya always reminding us of what's possible, we may forget.

I guess my first reaction was based on how doom and gloom he sounded. And I disagree if he claims that colonization of space would be as he described it.
We are not at that point, even if it were possible that we could have been under some very bad circumstances. And I think that's something we can take foolish pride in. We have worked hard and remained conscientious to not be that kind of society.

I actually had a theory, that if we were to place all different races to their own respective planet, give or take around a 100 thousand years, they would resemble our current planet with cultural and physical differences resulting in many global issues.
Convergent evolution?
Your hypothesis would be tricky to test. But using some Mendelvian principles, I think you're pretty close. i agree that we would probably all develop about the same way. Because even with different races, (Differences so minor as to be utterly trivial) the genetics, dispositions and properties of human behavior remain the same.
In the time you give, plenty of time to grow, overcome problems and develop stability would have passed. It's an optimistic view.
But taking an Asimov perspective, there also remains darker possibilities.


I believe until humans evolve past our primal feelings towards differences, there will still be problems, but nothing closely relating to what Tatsuya implied... not in this day and age. Not when people have learnt from slavery, genocide and the many pointless wars. Not when people are experiencing freedom of thought not soiled by tyrants and religious extremists (in most parts of the world anyway).
Yes, and we must always maintain this.

Apart from that, I see absolutely no moral issues with the actual process of colonizing our solar system, such thoughts never even crossed my mind.
Heck, I almost might make a strong argument that it would be 'immoral' to not do so!
But I agree, we should fearlessly plunge into the blue.

[Sargoth]

Oil and coal were just quick examples, especially since they require organic materials to create. The point still stands though. Without some resource to drive it, that is more cost effective to collect in space or more readily available, space exploration will be left as either a political chessboard (space race) or as a purely scientific research perspective. While the pure research may be ideal, it is definately not as well funded. Pure science is never as well funded. Look at modern NASA. Constant budget cutbacks. Constant doubts and questions as to its viability in the modern budgets.

I still say that true colonization efforts will not occur until there is a huge culture shift on earth towards a more utopian society for the pure science; the discovery of a must have natural resource outside the earth's sphere; or another space race with a rival nation.


As far as how....currently not viable for human colonization without either advances in propulsion that goes into pure theory. The other option is for some sort of cryogenics or deep sleep programs. The only other option is for generational ships where people live their lives along with their children and beyond to reach their objectives.

[Aravisian]

Oil and coal were just quick examples, especially since they require organic materials to create. The point still stands though. Without some resource to drive it, that is more cost effective to collect in space or more readily available, space exploration will be left as either a political chessboard (space race) or as a purely scientific research perspective. While the pure research may be ideal, it is definately not as well funded. Pure science is never as well funded. Look at modern NASA. Constant budget cutbacks. Constant doubts and questions as to its viability in the modern budgets.

I still say that true colonization efforts will not occur until there is a huge culture shift on earth towards a more utopian society for the pure science; the discovery of a must have natural resource outside the earth's sphere; or another space race with a rival nation.


As far as how....currently not viable for human colonization without either advances in propulsion that goes into pure theory. The other option is for some sort of cryogenics or deep sleep programs. The only other option is for generational ships where people live their lives along with their children and beyond to reach their objectives.
All too true. Kinda depressing to think about huh?

Much of the time, I feel like I'd love to explore beyond, even if it meant cryo or generational ships.

A twist of Irony....:

I watched "When worlds Collide." The original version.
Pretty good movie. But I had this thought... If Earth was threatened for destruction... I would choose to remain behind. I don't think other people should... But for me, that would be my personal choice.
I'd rather die with my planet than leave it during its destruction.
Yet...
If the planet is not destroyed- I have no problem with the idea of leaving it, even if I risk never returning.

Maybe I'm a bit crazy.

[axel1]

Oil or coal? Now THAT would be an intriguing discovery, to say the least! :p

Lol without question. It would solve our extraterrestrial life dilemma once and for all :p



Now... Where did Garret Lisi get to...

Speaking of Garret Lisi, his lifes work depends on the results of the LHC testing, this thing really is gona change our understanding of physics :shocked:

However, I disagree with you on one regard.

Oh how dare you, I request this thread be locked immediately! *rolls eyes*

Our current society is maintained by its very presence.
Should that break down, human kind most definitely has the potential to backslide into that same dog eat dog mentality. It's our nature.

Hmm I had an idea similar to this once. Mine basically was that if humans were to deeply inhabit space, one planet could potentially break into tyrranical rule or become a war hungry planet that would attempt a galactic war with neighbouring planets... I think that's basically the plot of Star Wars (or any sci-fi action movie for that matter lol). But honestly, with our current knowledge, unlimited access to data, communicational abilities and presence of sane and caring people... I doubt something like that would happen. I imagine we would have a unified political system, similar to that of the UN, EU or NATO... on a galactic level.

It COULD be applicable if our society allowed such. We have learned from our mistakes, true. But our learning can be unlearned in times of unrest.
If it were not for people like Tatsuya always reminding us of what's possible, we may forget.

Sadly this is a possibility, as crazy as it seems. We have people walking around denying things like the holocaust, glorifying the dark ages and wishing for destruction of certain humanity. But I'm hoping these kind of people will always be confined to their bedrooms and internet hate sites.


Convergent evolution?

Well not exactly, whereas that involves different species sharing similar evolutionary traits, my idea is that the same specie, over time, would become different enough to create a new human class, so to speak. That's basically what happened with us humans, but over a million or so years.

In the time you give, plenty of time to grow, overcome problems and develop stability would have passed. It's an optimistic view.

That's what I'm hoping for too, I have faith in humanity, and judging from our great progress from a century ago to now, I believe none of these things will be a problem. But it's something to speculate I suppose.


Heck, I almost might make a strong argument that it would be 'immoral' to not do so!
But I agree, we should fearlessly plunge into the blue.

Exactly, I'm really not that worried about the negative implications of space colonization, by the time that happens, I think this world will already be a much better place.

I'm more worried about the negative implications some new technology can bring, including robots more intelligent than humans and transhumanism, but that's an entirely different topic :p

[Aravisian]

Lol without question. It would solve our extraterrestrial life dilemma once and for all :p
Or lend credence to abiogenic oil hypothesis.
Speaking of Garret Lisi, his lifes work depends on the results of the LHC testing, this thing really is gona change our understanding of physics :shocked:
I'm not sure which life's work you are referring to.
Are you're referring to his "Absurdly simple TOE" using E8 Lie Algebra?
One problem with his TOE is that it's self contained. It has no room for adjustment or tweaking. If a particular aspect fails, the whole TOE must be scrapped.

Oh how dare you, I request this thread be locked immediately! *rolls eyes*
Careful, they might do it.
Hmm I had an idea similar to this once. Mine basically was that if humans were to deeply inhabit space, one planet could potentially break into tyrranical rule or become a war hungry planet that would attempt a galactic war with neighbouring planets... I think that's basically the plot of Star Wars (or any sci-fi action movie for that matter lol). But honestly, with our current knowledge, unlimited access to data, communicational abilities and presence of sane and caring people... I doubt something like that would happen. I imagine we would have a unified political system, similar to that of the UN, EU or NATO... on a galactic level.
It would be extremely difficult to have one at that level. The right hand wouldn't know what the left hand was doing.
Communication would be the largest problem unless Star Treks "subspace" method could be devised. With commo limited to light speed, there is no way for an effective central government to operate over such massive distances.
A plausible government would be one that is defined by federalism. Strong individual governments with a weaker central government.
Sadly this is a possibility, as crazy as it seems. We have people walking around denying things like the holocaust, glorifying the dark ages and wishing for destruction of certain humanity. But I'm hoping these kind of people will always be confined to their bedrooms and internet hate sites.
http://xkcd.com/386/

Fortunately, as you above addressed, the stronger majority will overwhelm them with logic...right?
;)

Well not exactly, whereas that involves different species sharing similar evolutionary traits, my idea is that the same specie, over time, would become different enough to create a new human class, so to speak. That's basically what happened with us humans, but over a million or so years.
Yeah I scrolled up three times now and reread that and I have no idea why I said that. I must have been thinking of something else entirely and tied the two together somehow.
http://xkcd.com/604/

I had a stupid moment, sorry about that.

I'm more worried about the negative implications some new technology can bring, including robots more intelligent than humans and transhumanism, but that's an entirely different topic :p

It's utterly silly to be afraid of that.

yet, I have that same fear. Some conservative part of me is bothered by transhumansism. Like the part of humans becoming both genders.
I mean... isn't it great having women?!

Maybe I need to just get over it...

[axel1]

Or lend credence to abiogenic oil hypothesis.

Never heard of that one, learn something new everyday :)

I'm not sure which life's work you are referring to.
Are you're referring to his "Absurdly simple TOE" using E8 Lie Algebra?
One problem with his TOE is that it's self contained. It has no room for adjustment or tweaking. If a particular aspect fails, the whole TOE must be scrapped.

Basically he drew up a pattern which he believes explains the theory, once the LHC tests are done, he expects the particles to form the shape and prove his theory.

http://www.rudyrucker.com/blog/images/E8_a.jpg

Communication would be the largest problem unless Star Treks "subspace" method could be devised. With commo limited to light speed, there is no way for an effective central government to operate over such massive distances.

Never thought of it that way. But you're right, we would be limited in that way. I guess we'd have to somehow alter spacetime. The theory you mentioned before, the Alcubierre drive, was first to pop into my head. Then we could transfer information much faster, it wouldn't actually travel faster than the speed of light, but in our world it would appear to do so. That or wormholes. But god only knows how we would accomplish any of that :confused:

A plausible government would be one that is defined by federalism. Strong individual governments with a weaker central government.

My idea was basically to have some unified government, under the label of humanity. But as you brought up, technologically such an idea is still implausible. Besides I doubt humans would all want one unified government, if we can't do it on Earth I don't see why it could be done on a galactic scale.

Fortunately, as you above addressed, the stronger majority will overwhelm them with logic...right?

That's my theory, but sadly events in history and the present had me reevaluate my faith in humanity :p

Also as we all know, it takes one person to change humanity. Wether it be in a positive way, for example Martin Luther, Einstein or Abraham Lincoln, or a negative way i.e, Muhammad (no offence to Muslims, it's just my opinion judging by his impact on the world).

I had a stupid moment, sorry about that.

Lol we all have them, nobody's perfect :)

In fact, as I was typing that very sentence, I accidentaly closed this reply and had to rewrite the entire damn thing :mad2:


Like the part of humans becoming both genders.
I mean... isn't it great having women?!

Maybe I need to just get over it...

Lol without question. But on a scientific level, it's great as long as we have hormones telling us so, if we were to become a unified sex reproducing like asexuals, it wouldn't matter then. But... I rather that NOT happen. I imagine some religious extremists are praying for that one tho lol

[Aravisian]

Never heard of that one, learn something new everyday :)
Russian.
It's a lot of fun.

Basically he drew up a pattern which he believes explains the theory, once the LHC tests are done, he expects the particles to form the shape and prove his theory.
Hmmmmm... Not to be rude, but that description troubles me a bit...
I have a copy of Lisi's TOE on .PDF if you would like a copy sent.

ETA: A side note: Personally, I don't have much truck with String theory. You'll find if we discuss it, that I'm a general opponent of it. This is why I was so interested when Lisi injected his TOE into the Mainstream.

Never thought of it that way. But you're right, we would be limited in that way. I guess we'd have to somehow alter spacetime. The theory you mentioned before, the Alcubierre drive, was first to pop into my head. Then we could transfer information much faster, it wouldn't actually travel faster than the speed of light, but in our world it would appear to do so. That or wormholes. But god only knows how we would accomplish any of that :confused:
Which is the problem. The mechanics of the Alcubierre Drive or other WARP drives require that you are transporting the same device you are using to create the effect. So, if we did develop FTL (ok, not FTL, but WARP) we might be ok.
That, considering the requirements, seems a very long way off. Far longer off than our stepping out into the void.

Using wormholes might work for transferring information- but I doubt it. The mechanics are just as daunting as WARP, but with the additional problem that whatever you dump into the wormhole on one side is going to get spaghetified before reaching its egress.
My idea was basically to have some unified government, under the label of humanity. But as you brought up, technologically such an idea is still implausible. Besides I doubt humans would all want one unified government, if we can't do it on Earth I don't see why it could be done on a galactic scale.
The Axel Empire...

That's my theory, but sadly events in history and the present had me reevaluate my faith in humanity :p

Also as we all know, it takes one person to change humanity. Wether it be in a positive way, for example Martin Luther, Einstein or Abraham Lincoln, or a negative way(snip)
Stalin, Mussolini..

Influences are just a general shove, usually. I think many changes occur when enough people support the change. Whether it's a positive change or a negative change.
Speakers for the Majority may rise to power, as the examples you listed, but they would be nothing without followers that agree with their influence.


In fact, as I was typing that very sentence, I accidentaly closed this reply and had to rewrite the entire damn thing :mad2:
I wonder what the first reply said...http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/39.gif

Lol without question. But on a scientific level, it's great as long as we have hormones telling us so, if we were to become a unified sex reproducing like asexuals, it wouldn't matter then.
True. It wouldn't matter once the transition is over...

But I'm not transitted damnit!

[axel1]

Russian.
It's a lot of fun.

Good ol' Russians, some of the most fascinating science came from that area until about 20 years ago. From the periodic table to two-headed dogs. Oh well.


Hmmmmm... Not to be rude, but that description troubles me a bit...
I have a copy of Lisi's TOE on .PDF if you would like a copy sent.

Sure, if you see anything wrong with my understanding of a theory feel free to correct it, as I mentioned before I'm quite new to the whole physics thing so I'm bound to have a few misunderstandings here and there :)

Which is the problem. The mechanics of the Alcubierre Drive or other WARP drives require that you are transporting the same device you are using to create the effect. So, if we did develop FTL (ok, not FTL, but WARP) we might be ok.

My idea was that we could establish some sort of permanent connection some way, or at least use a device to create a temporary rip in spacetime and send watever we need to send (electromagnetic frequency maybe?). I guess you could call it a portal type scenario, a bit too sci-fi for reality but who knows.

The Axel Empire...

Gotta say, can't shake the tyrannical association between a galactic empire under control of a single group of people and what we saw in Star Wars lol.

Speakers for the Majority may rise to power, as the examples you listed, but they would be nothing without followers that agree with their influence.

As long as we oppose the thoughts and lies that influence those followers we should be fine :)


I wonder what the first reply said

Basically the same thing, just in much more detail.

True. It wouldn't matter once the transition is over...

But still I'd fight avoid such a transition to the end. I realized that we could also say that getting a lobotomy wouldn't be bad after getting one, but we wouldn't want to have that done either way :p

[Aravisian]

Sure, if you see anything wrong with my understanding of a theory feel free to correct it, as I mentioned before I'm quite new to the whole physics thing so I'm bound to have a few misunderstandings here and there :)
Well...
You know how it goes:
I don't want to Get Accused of Forcing my "Views" on you...http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif
My idea was that we could establish some sort of permanent connection some way, or at least use a device to create a temporary rip in spacetime and send watever we need to send (electromagnetic frequency maybe?). I guess you could call it a portal type scenario, a bit too sci-fi for reality but who knows.
Speculation... but workable.
Good point. Have listening and sending posts stationed throughout the Galaxy...
Gotta say, can't shake the tyrannical association of a galactic empire under control of a single group of people.
Wait til they get a load of me...
As long as we oppose the thoughts and lies that influence those followers we should be fine :)
Say what?

[axel1]

Well...
You know how it goes:
I don't want to Get Accused of Forcing my "Views" on you...

Oh yeah, god forbid, I should sue those damn teachers who have been forcing their views on me all those years :mad:

Say what?

e.g, Cults, Scientology etc..

[Aravisian]

Oh yeah, god forbid, I should sue those damn teachers who have been forcing their views on me all those years :mad:
I know, right? How dare they!
e.g, Cults, Scientology etc..

Oh, that reminds me...

I have converted and changed my name into a symbol. You cannot say the symbol, so from now on, you must call me "the poster formerly known as Aravisian."

"In the news tonight- Tom Cruise has been declared Supreme Overlord of the Galactic Empire. His 14 hour acceptance speech will begin shortly."

[tatsuya1221]

Leave others views out of this.
I'm not going to have another topic turn into a flamewar here, respect that others may not agree with you and don't insult them.

[Aravisian]

Leave others views out of this.
I'm not going to have another topic turn into a flamewar here, respect that others may not agree with you and don't insult them.

My apologies to the artist formerly known as 'the artist formerly known as Prince.'

[axel1]

Leave others views out of this.
I'm not going to have another topic turn into a flamewar here, respect that others may not agree with you and don't insult them.

*sigh* alright then.


You still gotta lighten up a bit man, I'd hate to someday make a reference to Godwin's law because of strict mods...

[tatsuya1221]

*sigh* alright then.


You still gotta lighten up a bit man, I'd hate to someday make a reference to godwins law because of strict mods...

That is what pm's are for.

Scientology for example, i have a ton of things i could say about it, but it is still their right to choose and their right to believe what they want without someone insulting them because they don't like it.

EDIT:forgot to say, it's my final warn.

[Aravisian]

Agreed, actually.
Let's keep religion out.

Moving along...

[axel1]

Agreed, actually.
Let's keep religion out.

Moving along...

Ha, I was just about to write the same thing. I was once a Christian so I understand from that perspective, plus making fun of religion can lead to more serious problems (i.e, hating Jews)

Anyway, before I head off to bed, why do you prefer Lisi's theory to that of the string theory?

[Aravisian]

Anyway, before I head off to bed, why do you prefer Lisi's theory to that of the string theory?

To answer that, I would have to keep you up all night.

To start out, it's not that I prefer Lisi's theory over String, it's that String and Brane is not well supported scientifically.
Lisi's contribution is currently a hypothesis awaiting testing and observation.

It's relatively new, But I have not been impressed by String for many years.
Like you, I once was. But the more I looked into it, the more full of holes I found it to be.

[axel1]

To answer that, I would have to keep you up all night.

To start out, it's not that I prefer Lisi's theory over String, it's that String and Brane is not well supported scientifically.

True that, I still think the LHC results will provide us with enough knowledge to test Lisi's theory either way. String theory I believe is almost impossible to test, you heard the little factoid right? if you could expand an atom to the size of the universe, the string would be the size of a tree :shocked:

Like you, I once was. But the more I looked into it, the more full of holes I found it to be.

I'm actually not sold on it at all, I approach all these theories with extreme skepticism. They are after all nothing more than theories created by minds of men who want to explain ultimate reality in a simple equation or explanation. Until I see these theories used to create new ideas that could possibly benefit humanity, I'm not impressed by anything at all.

[Aravisian]

I would just like to state for the record:

At no time have I ever claimed that Science is "perfect" and I have actually pointed out in other threads in the science section that science is not "perfect".

[Sargoth]

My experience with string theory was something along the lines of a theory looking for facts that supported it rather than having facts and trying to come up with a theory that linked them.

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/324289-cMnvOZ/webviewable/324289.pdf

This is one of the more current next gen interplanetary designs being worked on between NASA and the Dept of Energy. It uses a fussion core for power and thrust as well as a rotating body for artificial gravity.

[axel1]

My experience with string theory was something along the lines of a theory looking for facts that supported it rather than having facts and trying to come up with a theory that linked them.

Lol that's basically how most theories begin. The reason it's so popular is because there's been few theories that have so many facts actually supporting it. Only problem is that it cannot be tested using any technology of today.

This is one of the more current next gen interplanetary designs being worked on between NASA and the Dept of Energy. It uses a fussion core for power and thrust as well as a rotating body for artificial gravity.

Lol that document is over 11 years old, so not that current. Nuclear energy in spaceships isn't really a new idea, but it's not a bad one. I myself think we overlook the possibilies of nuclear energy all too often, thanks to an accident a couple of overworked and possibly drunk Ukrainians made a few years ago...

My personal interest is actually in antimatter tho, I think that's a sign of future technology.

[Aravisian]

My experience with string theory was something along the lines of a theory looking for facts that supported it rather than having facts and trying to come up with a theory that linked them.

Actually, I kind of agree with Sargoth on this one Axel1.

Although a theory must predict observation and conform (Modify the theory to account for mistakes or inaccuracies) to observation.. String Theory has about the same effect on me. It's like they are trying to fit the facts, rather than predict observation or account for possible observation.

Now, I have no problem with speculation nor complex speculation.
Yet, String builds speculation upon layers of speculation. That, too, bothers me.


For now, it must remain speculation even if intriguing speculation. But even so, I just am not as impressed by it.

[Sargoth]

11 years really isn't that old when you are talking about designing propulsion systems. Especially when you are creating the technology at the same time. Nuclear power is easy. Just a matter of hot rock make pressurized steam to move a turbine. Sustained, controlled thrust from a nuclear reaction in space is turning concept into function for the first time. It will take years to fabricate, test, and refine. How long do you think it takes to go from research to production on a new fighter? Think more along the lines of how long it took to go from rocket to space shuttle. Space Shuttle research began in August 1969, before we had even landed on the moon. The first shuttle reached orbit in 1981. Most of that wasn't new technology, more a merging of rocket technology with airplane mechanics.

With your previously mentioned nuclear accidents around the world, high end nuclear experimentation has slowed to a snails pace. Heck, there hasn't been any new reactor construction in the US since the 3 mile island fiasco. Most of our practical mechanics in use comes from knoledge and theory garnered from the nuclear hayday in the 50's and 60's. Not to mention, Opec puts a lot of money out there to keep the nuclear research bogged down. Nuclear power is after all, a rival business and it does them good to keep everyone afraid of it.

[axel1]

Actually, I kind of agree with Sargoth on this one Axel1.

Although a theory must predict observation and conform (Modify the theory to account for mistakes or inaccuracies) to observation.. String Theory has about the same effect on me. It's like they are trying to fit the facts, rather than predict observation or account for possible observation.

Now, I have no problem with speculation nor complex speculation.
Yet, String builds speculation upon layers of speculation. That, too, bothers me.


For now, it must remain speculation even if intriguing speculation. But even so, I just am not as impressed by it.

Well I agree with you on that. I'd also like to add that this is the way we should look at all theory, as I mentioned in my previous post.

It will take years to fabricate, test, and refine.

That's basically what's been happening, I can assure you that NASA already has countless blueprints for these type of shuttles described to a T. A lot of what's holding us back is fear of radiation and what kind of effect this type of energy could have on astonauts. Once they figure out how to make it a safer process, we'll be set.

Space Shuttle research began in August 1969, before we had even landed on the moon. The first shuttle reached orbit in 1981. Most of that wasn't new technology, more a merging of rocket technology with airplane mechanics.

Lol pretty much. Ironically that took less time to put into practice than anything we're seeing now. The idea of nuclear propulsion although isn't anything new, Project Orion for example began in the late 1940's and look at how that turned out. I really gotta question what NASA has been doing all this time, they barely made any progression in space travel in half a cenutry they've been around. But they do a lot of useful scientific research I suppose.

Not to mention, Opec puts a lot of money out there to keep the nuclear research bogged down. Nuclear power is after all, a rival business and it does them good to keep everyone afraid of it.

Ha, never even considered that, but that makes a lot of sense. Thinking about it, who knows what other progress has been hindered by such corporation. So many countries rely fossil fuel as an integral part of the economy, it's not even funny. Basically every pan-arabic state and Russia would collapse if we found and used alternative fuel source.

[Sargoth]

There have been several new technologies that have been eaten by the OPEC giant.

The first that comes to mind is a liquid coal internal combustion engine.

It was built by an American engineer to fit directly into a current automobile. It ran off liquid coal (a waste product of refining coal for industrial use). Burned more cleanly than gasoline. And got around 60 mpg off the prototype. The real kicker...the three most oil dependant countries in the world, USA, Russia, and China are also the three most coal rich. OPEC purchased the patent and all rights to the device for half a billion dollars. The prototype hasn't been seen since.

Nuclear Propulsion is a new proceedure. I was a Reactor Operator in the Navy. Using nuclear power to turn a turbine is old news. Using pure nuclear thrust to push an object through a vacuum is completely different. The only similarities between the two is the fact that they are both nuclear.

Having blueprints and having a functional device is a big step. There are always unforseen malfunctions and material problems. Another limiting factor is that, the device I showed is designed for low orbit max. It is never designed to function inside an atmosphere. So for full testing you will actually have to have it in space. Even logistically speaking that is a nightmare since you will have to build it sectionally on Earth, send it up and build it like the space station. Once you do that, you come under the scrutiny of other nations. If it is a multinational effort, then all their designers will want a crack at their ideas to redesign sections and on and on and on

[Aravisian]

The first that comes to mind is a liquid coal internal combustion engine.

It was built by an American engineer to fit directly into a current automobile. It ran off liquid coal (a waste product of refining coal for industrial use). Burned more cleanly than gasoline. And got around 60 mpg off the prototype. The real kicker...the three most oil dependant countries in the world, USA, Russia, and China are also the three most coal rich. OPEC purchased the patent and all rights to the device for half a billion dollars. The prototype hasn't been seen since.


Do you have any cites for this?

Liquid Coal is nothing new. It's been processed for decades.

There are two possible ways of refining liquid coal, one gives off much more greenhouse gas than conventional methods.
The other method is laregly inefficient, but it has the potential to reduce emission of greenhouse gases during refinement by 75%.

I have never heard of an internal combustion engine specifically designed for liquid coal.
But our current ICE's can burn or be adapted to burn liquid coal.

[Sargoth]

Sorry bro,

I can't cite original sources. It was something I learned about under security clearances.

[axel1]

Sorry bro,

I can't cite original sources. It was something I learned about under security clearances.

Well either way, liquid coal is nothing more than a temporary solution to a greater problem.

If there really are corporations out there powerful enough to control the kind of energy we use, then nothing we mere mortals can really do. Just hope that we burn up all the fuel soon so they'll let us experience mans greater technologies lol.

On the subject of energy. I think it's our duty as citizens to just do what we can to use alternative energy like that which comes from the sun (which btw, burns enough fuel a second to produce ~400 billion-billion megawatts of energy). Once corporation sees this, they will be more inclined to enter into the more lucrative market of alternative fuel.

But I wouldn't even get my hopes up then, nothing in the world can make more money than destructive use of resources. So I guess we're pretty much screwed.

[Aravisian]

Sorry bro,

I can't cite original sources. It was something I learned about under security clearances.

Ah, Ok.

Yeah, I'll do a bit of research on it. If it's a civil issue, I'm sure 'classified' will bear little meaning;)

I was just curious about it. All things considered, what I have turned up so far, is many developments for alternative fuel engines, including liquid coal. None of them are quite as efficient as the one you had described.

Whenever I hear of a squashed project that was too good to be true, my skepticism radar goes off.

Well either way, liquid coal is nothing more than a temporary solution to a greater problem.

If there really are corporations out there powerful enough to control the kind of energy we use, then nothing we mere mortals can really do. Just hope that we burn up all the fuel soon so they'll let us experience mans greater technologies lol.

Yet, even mundane research will reveal that there are no such corporations with that kind of power. It makes fun fiction, but in Real Life, there are WAY too many independents to try to suppress.
Today, we have a great many independent researches exploring multitudes of alternative energy prospects.

Micheal Jackson was one of the wealthiest people and he went bankrupt just trying to silence (not very well, at that) a handful of people.
It's all too easy to cry foul if force is used. And even an extremely wealthy corporation could only afford to pay off a few dozen people in that manner at one pop. Not to say MILLIONS.
On the subject of energy. I think it's our duty as citizens to just do what we can to use alternative energy like that which comes from the sun (which btw, burns enough fuel a second to produce ~400 billion-billion megawatts of energy). Once corporation sees this, they will be more inclined to enter into the more lucrative market of alternative fuel.
Although the Sun's output is extremely great, harnessing it on Earth is not as efficient or as easy as one might think.

Solar and wind power are also expensive to set up.
They might help alleviate some of the use, but by no means are a current form of alternative fuel. They are alternative alleviation for the time being.

I'm with you- My bets are pegged in Nuclear research.
But I wouldn't even get my hopes up then, nothing in the world can make more money than destructive use of resources. So I guess we're pretty much screwed.

It's not always just the money. It's availability, efficiency, and prospect of use.

Believe it or not, there ARE people in corporations that do care about the environment, our children and the Earths welfare just as much as there are people in Health care or Politics or Plumbing that care about the environment.

Many "greedy" corporations are spending phenomenal amounts of money out of pocket on alternative fuel research, much of which does, indeed, turn out to be a dead end (As independent research can show) that wasted their funding.
Yet, they continue.
Not for even as noble reasons as to save the Earth. But to at least be the first to patent a good solid prospectus on Alternative fuel.
It's inevitable that the fossil fuels will drop to levels (even as a renewable resource, it cannot renew faster than our rate of consumption) at which we can no longer rely on them. Corporations would rather have a good fall back plan than go belly up at that time.

This is yet another reason why I feel strongly about our exploration of space.
It's not likely we will find an alternative fuel source offside the planet.
But it is highly likely that our technological pressure will be exacerbated by our drive into space. This, like the computing pressure that resulted in a Nobel Prize winning breakthrough being used to harness MUCH greater storage capacity from a discovery made- leading to 64 gig IPODS! Could you have imagined a 64 gig hard drive that fit in a wafer only a few years ago?

[linkfan57x]

I am just joining this particular thread and well i am about to embark unto a college career of Computer Science and Physics....I'll let you know how that turns out.


And as far as alternative resources: I believe that even though humanity as a whole would give great gobs of money to the cause, the fewer people actually in control are more greedy than us and because alternative fuels will (hopefully) provide large amounts of energy for small amounts of money they will stick with the kind that will keep the economy going as it is and keep lining their own pockets....

That's what I think at least....or maybe I have been playing too my=uch Metal Gear Solid *cough*lalelulelo*cough*

[Aravisian]

I am just joining this particular thread and well i am about to embark unto a college career of Computer Science and Physics....I'll let you know how that turns out.


And as far as alternative resources: I believe that even though humanity as a whole would give great gobs of money to the cause, the fewer people actually in control are more greedy than us and because alternative fuels will (hopefully) provide large amounts of energy for small amounts of money they will stick with the kind that will keep the economy going as it is and keep lining their own pockets....

That's what I think at least....or maybe I have been playing too my=uch Metal Gear Solid *cough*lalelulelo*cough*

What supports your claim that 'Alternative Energy' sources will provide greater energy at less cost?

[ridley]

I don't think humanity should be allowed to plague other planets.

[Dirtybooty]

I hope they blow up in space some day.